Another suggestion from yours truly

[hedgehog337 3,480]

1 minute ago, jRuutu said:

If they truly like it here, the drop in performance as a welfare player should not be the difference maker in staying or going. The fact that they can even build a decent player without doing Pt´s should be reward enough.

 

Decent player with 3 TPE welfare and harsher update scale. I don't believe it.

 

Even though, there's a 400 TPE player who's currently shitting on whole league, so perhaps I'm too pessimistic.

[jRuutu 2,303]

8 minutes ago, hedgehog337 said:

 

Decent player with 3 TPE welfare and harsher update scale. I don't believe it.

 

Even though, there's a 400 TPE player who's currently shitting on whole league, so perhaps I'm too pessimistic.

Would have to be more of a depth option for sure, but in VHL that player would still be able to put solid numbers, just not as solid as maybe now

[Baozi 1,635]

I'm in NYC right now so i don't really have time to stay in this debate until im back in 10 days.

 

I'm the most active "welfare" player atm, i also am efficient in my usage of shop items and i max donate.

@jRuutu

It could sure, but also could motivate them to be even more active when every TPE makes even bigger difference than now.

 

 

It wont actually.

 

Its because I don't actually have the time nor creative capacity to pump out PTs anymore.

 

My short and simple example  to the continuous nerf of welfare players is SHL. I lasted an whole...2 months there and left and their system is even more generous to welfare players than here and you want to nerf here.

 

I'm pretty much at my last line here for welfare, I've only now stuck around because i can use discord but im barely able to find reason to login now because my player would be rly shitty normally if i didn't maximize all my shop buys and donations and what have you and didn't have somewhat a good idea on how to build characters. 

 

But sure if you want to keep players like me and whomever else away from the league then sure. I mean im just one person anyways and if you think I'm the reason that the league suffers from inactivity then so be it.

 

You guys keep wanting to think nerfing welfare is the solution to whatever problem you're facing. I'm not even sure why that is even a thing, its been nerfed to hell since the first versions of welfare and yet the problems still persist. Pretty sure welfare isn't the issue.

 

 

Edited November 8, 2017 by tfong

[jRuutu 2,303]

4 hours ago, tfong said:

I'm in NYC right now so i don't really have time to stay in this debate until im back in 10 days.

 

I'm the most active "welfare" player atm, i also am efficient in my usage of shop items and i max donate.

@jRuutu

 

It wont actually.

 

Its because I don't actually have the time nor creative capacity to pump out PTs anymore.

 

My short and simple example  to the continuous nerf of welfare players is SHL. I lasted an whole...2 months there and left and their system is even more generous to welfare players than here and you want to nerf here.

 

I'm pretty much at my last line here for welfare, I've only now stuck around because i can use discord but im barely able to find reason to login now because my player would be rly shitty normally if i didn't maximize all my shop buys and donations and what have you and didn't have somewhat a good idea on how to build characters. 

 

But sure if you want to keep players like me and whomever else away from the league then sure. I mean im just one person anyways and if you think I'm the reason that the league suffers from inactivity then so be it.

 

You guys keep wanting to think nerfing welfare is the solution to whatever problem you're facing. I'm not even sure why that is even a thing, its been nerfed to hell since the first versions of welfare and yet the problems still persist. Pretty sure welfare isn't the issue.

 

 

Should come back to SHL if time is the issue, the whole ´grind´ over there is claiming the AC, then doing few little PT´s like picking 3 teams who win whatever games and writing 150+ word article once per week about whatever subject the PT staff picks out for everybody. As easy it gets really,  writing media to get money is optional, I´m completely broke all the time and I have played something like 15 seasons already, so you don´t really even need too much money to build solid player, contract money goes long way.

 

What comes to VHL, the problem I have with welfare is the fact that it´s not big enough difference between 4 TPE some can claim and 6 for media/Graphic stuff. That is all, some kind of updating on that area is needed, soon there is nothing left but welfare players. That is something what the league should fight against as strongly as possible

[Quik 4,113]

I don't think nerfing welfare is the way to go. I think making it 4 for everyone is a better way to do it if you don't want members making 5 TPE off of a pension claim. If anyone really has a problem with people claiming welfare when they're not even putting in large effort in their own PTs anyways, then that's their own problem, IMO. Personally though, I think keeping the pension for guys with 2 400TPE players is fine, when you consider it's just the 4 TPE + the 1 TPE for 590s that nobody gives a fuck about anyways. These are members who have shown activity before, so it's not just guys who come in, claim, and leave. I think some loyalty to those of us who have put in years here is deserved.

 

I mean, even if we go the 7/5/4 route, over the course of an 8 week season plus 2 week off-season, someone who submits PTs every week would, with my layout, earn at least 25 TPE/season more than the pensioners (2x10 + 5 for completing 8 PTs), and 35 more than the welfare players. Add in that the PT players are also more likely to have jobs/review/do trivia, and that jumps up possibly another 30. So if you have guys earning up to 65 TPE/season more than the welfare players, that's still enough that PT players will be better, but the guys who just want to be here don't have to deal with being in the minors for 3-4 seasons and then hitting depreciation the minute they get decent.

 

And if we go this route, with changing the update scale as well, there's no need for archetypes IMO, either. Guys would need to be more selective with their TPE, and maxing out stats would be a lot more difficult (and the player-store would be more important). I mean, 510 TPE would create a legit scorer with 90 SC, 85 SK/PH/DF, 80 PA/ST, and 70 CK. Let's say that in the time it takes to get 510 TPE through PT route, without doing any other stuff like trivia and jobs, predictions, etc., it would give a pensioner ~380, and a welfare player ~310. Pension scorer could have 85 SC, 80 SK/PH, 75 PA/DF, 70 ST and 65 CK while welfare scorer would be slightly worse and probably have to neglect CK.

 

So yeah, changing the system would mean that everyone needs to be a bit more selective in how they update their player, but it also means that players become more realistic, and there's not this gigantic gulf between players, while the guys who are putting in more effort are clearly going to be the better/star players. It might mean changing depreciation a bit as well, and tacking on a year or 2 at the end of a player's career might be cool too, but I really think this would help the league attract more users and be more competitive.

[Ahma 1,288]

18 hours ago, hedgehog337 said:

 

And what @tfong or @Ahma are thinking about it? It just could drive them out of the league cause it's too harsh.

fck sake DONT TOUCH THE WELFARE SYSTEM PLEEASE

[Spade18 1,302]

Honeslty, I came here with the sole intention of being a welfare player and turned into an active after seeing what the league was really about.  Welfare can be an easy access point to some people, and is a good way to keep long time members some what involved rather than them just going fully inactive. Lowering welfare = lowering user count and in order to grab active members we need to cast a WIDER net, not a narrow one.

[Quik 4,113]

57 minutes ago, Quik said:

I don't think nerfing welfare is the way to go. I think making it 4 for everyone is a better way to do it if you don't want members making 5 TPE off of a pension claim. If anyone really has a problem with people claiming welfare when they're not even putting in large effort in their own PTs anyways, then that's their own problem, IMO. Personally though, I think keeping the pension for guys with 2 400TPE players is fine, when you consider it's just the 4 TPE + the 1 TPE for 590s that nobody gives a fuck about anyways. These are members who have shown activity before, so it's not just guys who come in, claim, and leave. I think some loyalty to those of us who have put in years here is deserved.

 

I mean, even if we go the 7/5/4 route, over the course of an 8 week season plus 2 week off-season, someone who submits PTs every week would, with my layout, earn at least 25 TPE/season more than the pensioners (2x10 + 5 for completing 8 PTs), and 35 more than the welfare players. Add in that the PT players are also more likely to have jobs/review/do trivia, and that jumps up possibly another 30. So if you have guys earning up to 65 TPE/season more than the welfare players, that's still enough that PT players will be better, but the guys who just want to be here don't have to deal with being in the minors for 3-4 seasons and then hitting depreciation the minute they get decent.

 

And if we go this route, with changing the update scale as well, there's no need for archetypes IMO, either. Guys would need to be more selective with their TPE, and maxing out stats would be a lot more difficult (and the player-store would be more important). I mean, 510 TPE would create a legit scorer with 90 SC, 85 SK/PH/DF, 80 PA/ST, and 70 CK. Let's say that in the time it takes to get 510 TPE through PT route, without doing any other stuff like trivia and jobs, predictions, etc., it would give a pensioner ~380, and a welfare player ~310. Pension scorer could have 85 SC, 80 SK/PH, 75 PA/DF, 70 ST and 65 CK while welfare scorer would be slightly worse and probably have to neglect CK.

 

So yeah, changing the system would mean that everyone needs to be a bit more selective in how they update their player, but it also means that players become more realistic, and there's not this gigantic gulf between players, while the guys who are putting in more effort are clearly going to be the better/star players. It might mean changing depreciation a bit as well, and tacking on a year or 2 at the end of a player's career might be cool too, but I really think this would help the league attract more users and be more competitive.

 

As an add on to this, if we assume there's 10 weeks in a season, and players start 1 full season in the VHLM pre-draft, with VHLM Bonus (say max, even though not everyone hits it -- and twice for non-PT guys who would return to VHLM after draft), Predictions (let's say an avg payout of 3 TPE?), Trivia (we'll say 8 TPE for PT guys, and 3 for non-PT guys), Donations (2x Doubles for PT, 2x 5TPE for non-PT and no use of doubles), Activity Bonus (5), PT Bonus (5), Bio + RP done pre-draft for PT guys, and no job/other TPE earned, the triple breakdown of TPE per season would be (assuming everyone starts with 30, even though PT players are more likely to have carryover):

 

Season --- PT --- PP --- WF

PreDraft --- 172 --- 97 --- 87

S1 --- 144 (316) --- 107 (204) --- 97 (184)

S2 --- 144 (460) --- 87 (291) --- 77 (261)

S3 --- 144 (604) --- 87 (378) --- 77 (338)

S4 --- 144 (748) --- 87 (465) --- 77 (415)

S5 --- 144 (892) --- 87 (552) --- 77 (492)

S6 --- 144 (1036) --- 87 (639) --- 77 (569)

S7 --- 144 (1180) --- 87 (726) --- 77 (646)

S8 --- 144 (1324) --- 87 (813) --- 77 (723)

 

Eventually, we'd have to raise the bar for Pension, since hitting 500 shouldn't be difficult, but there's a very clear divide still between PT players and non-PT players. Even with my suggested update scale, PT players would be able to hit stardom in their 3rd season, while it would take almost all non-depreciation years for non-PT guys to get to that point. They'd be able to create solid players still, guys who score 30 goals and come close to PPG, which makes it a lot more fun for them, but they wouldn't be able to hit superstar levels unless they get very lucky, like Krigars and Locke this season. I get the fear of breaking the league, but it just won't happen. Hell, even with the new update scale, by the time they start their 5th season, PT players would be able to max out 2 attributes, have a 95, two 90s, an 85 and a 60. And that's without having a job that pays an extra 20 TPE/season. Honestly, after laying it out like that, I think an even harsher update scale might be necessary lol. Looking at it this way, I'd push it to:

 

40-60 = 1 / 60-70 =2 / 70-80 = 3 / 80-85 = 4 / 85-90 = 5 / 90-95 = 6 / 95-99 = 7

 

That would cost 173 to max out an attribute, vs the originally proposed 149, and the current 134. It's still possible to max out an attribute or 2, but again, is more realistic in doing so, in that it sacrifices other possible skills.

Edited November 8, 2017 by Quik

[Tyler 881]

100 percent agree with everyone getting 4 TPE for welfare @Quik

 

[Da Trifecta 1,896]

3 hours ago, Tyler said:

100 percent agree with everyone getting 4 TPE for welfare @Quik

 

 

Yeah seems like a reasonable medium.

[JardyB10 4,834]

I'd rather close the league than make it lazier.

[Quik 4,113]

12 hours ago, JardyB10 said:

I'd rather close the league than make it lazier.

The league's already lazy, I mean look at the stuff some people submit for the auto-6...

 

Hooking new members and creating activity should be the goal. The guys who do PTs will keep doing them, since they get almost twice as much TPE. The guys who don't at least stick around and create more of an atmosphere. The league is in no position to turn away members who might contribute to the league. @Spade18 is the perfect example. He might be the exception, but he came in as a welfare guy, then turned out to be one of the more active members. The point is to try and find as many new members like him as you can.

 

Get rid of pension and make welfare 4 for everyone if that's the biggest issue, but welfare at 2 TPE only discourages people from sticking around.

Edited November 9, 2017 by Quik

[Spade18 1,302]

I dont feel like welfare is at all the problem.  If someone is going to be a welfare player, let them be a welfare player.

 

I feel like a lot of the problem comes from keeping members who join.  Just these past weeks, It's been a while since we've received an update in the VHLM, and you can tell activity slowed significantly around the VHLM from it.  I myself write a weekly MS in which it is IMPERATIVE that the league be updated for, and I now may go 2 weeks without doing a MS as I've been waiting for the updates to happen.  It may be coincidence, but we also lost a newly rejoined (if I remember correctly) member in @Green during the time where there haven't been updates.  

 

I would propose not being harder on the players trying to gain TPE, but on the higher up positions who run the league. It may sound like i'm honing in on the updaters, but this is just coming to mind, so I'm gonna run with this thought process and use them as an example.  I think that the commissioners, the BOG, who ever it may be, should run a balance against the Job positions which claim TPE.  Why are they allowed to Claim TPE for not fulfilling their job?  I feel as though, unless updates are made during the week in question, the updater should not be allowed to claim the TPE.  

This will hold the tops of the league to a higher standard, make things run smoother, and show newer members that we care.

 

I know some people immediately get turned off when another league is mentioned, but I'm a casual welfare guy over at the EFL, and they are TIGHT on their updating, they have a couple mishaps with simming and roster moves, but they move quickly to fix the problems, and it shows.  I know It's a new league and that brings other things with it, but you get a sense that the league is in good hands when you can see issues being handled from the top down and it promotes people to do their work because they know they will be rewarded for it.

 

Increased activity comes from the top down.  Not the other way around.

[Da Trifecta 1,896]

Or maybe leave welfare at 3 for everyone. Sound reasonable @JardyB10? Then they literally only get half

[Baozi 1,635]

That doesn't sound reasonable but that's me.

 

You guys like to point to me for welfare players but I contribute in more ways than just PTs to the VHL and i believe i shouldn't be rewarded with only a 300 TPE player  due to this. I also am fully active in my draft year so realistically, a welfare only player is typically weaker than me already.

 

 

Edited November 10, 2017 by tfong

[NotAVHLM-GM 1,858]

Not gone but also not doing much to gain tpe either , for me its a motivation issue, not related to updates

[Da Trifecta 1,896]

2 hours ago, tfong said:

That doesn't sound reasonable but that's me.

 

You guys like to point to me for welfare players but I contribute in more ways than just PTs to the VHL and i believe i shouldn't be rewarded with only a 300 TPE player  due to this. I also am fully active in my draft year so realistically, a welfare only player is typically weaker than me already.

 

 

 

Well it's a medium to reward the actives without doing anything really drastic.

[Baozi 1,635]

21 hours ago, KGR said:

 

Well it's a medium to reward the actives without doing anything really drastic.

 

The better medium is to increase payouts for active activities, not reduce the welfare policies. 

[Banackock 7,642]

2. Get rid of the first level of Pension, and bump Welfare to that level. With the ease of hitting 400 TPE nowadays, having one player hit that level isn't that special. Get rid of that level. Now, it's 7 if you do a PT, 5 if you have a pair of 400TPE players, and 4 for newcomers.

 

swear I've read that somewhere before..